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	<title>Comments on: &#8220;No-one should be under any doubt &#8211; prisoners are not getting the vote under this government&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/</link>
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		<title>By: frednach</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20849</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[frednach]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2012 13:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20849</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One quite understands the opposition and apathy towards prisoner&#039;s right to vote, after all they have forfeited their freedoms by violating laws. However, if the notion to deny this right is on the grounds of criminality per se then there is a double standard since former convicts are afforded this very right upon relase from prison or indeed even after serving their rehabilitation period.

Thus the very fabric of our objection becomes one of incarceration, that is one set of prisoner&#039;s are denied this right because of their incarceration, yet other former convicts are restored that privilege since they are out and about in the community. This does not sound rational law to me.

For me it is right and proper that all citizens be given the privilige to participate and debate in society, this is healthy for rehabilitaion, society and a general feeling of being part of civl society- incaceration does not have to spell the end of civilisation or persons freedom of expression or indeed participation in society.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One quite understands the opposition and apathy towards prisoner&#8217;s right to vote, after all they have forfeited their freedoms by violating laws. However, if the notion to deny this right is on the grounds of criminality per se then there is a double standard since former convicts are afforded this very right upon relase from prison or indeed even after serving their rehabilitation period.</p>
<p>Thus the very fabric of our objection becomes one of incarceration, that is one set of prisoner&#8217;s are denied this right because of their incarceration, yet other former convicts are restored that privilege since they are out and about in the community. This does not sound rational law to me.</p>
<p>For me it is right and proper that all citizens be given the privilige to participate and debate in society, this is healthy for rehabilitaion, society and a general feeling of being part of civl society- incaceration does not have to spell the end of civilisation or persons freedom of expression or indeed participation in society.</p>
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		<title>By: Tobias Thienel</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20767</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tobias Thienel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 20:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20767</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The reference for the US Supreme Court case mentioned is U.S. v. Belmont, 301 U.S. 324, 331 (1937).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reference for the US Supreme Court case mentioned is U.S. v. Belmont, 301 U.S. 324, 331 (1937).</p>
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		<title>By: goggzilla</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20765</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[goggzilla]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 20:46:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I am following this with great interest. My own ruling was last year and we still have 1 and a half million innocent folks on an (illegal under ECHR law) National DNA Database as Essex Police gloated to me recently. Strasbourg is merely a rich men&#039;s club and totally ineffective.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am following this with great interest. My own ruling was last year and we still have 1 and a half million innocent folks on an (illegal under ECHR law) National DNA Database as Essex Police gloated to me recently. Strasbourg is merely a rich men&#8217;s club and totally ineffective.</p>
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		<title>By: goggzilla</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20763</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[goggzilla]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 20:44:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20763</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It can (and does) ignore ECHR rulings.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It can (and does) ignore ECHR rulings.</p>
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		<title>By: goggzilla</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20762</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[goggzilla]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 20:43:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20762</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It has none, Marper still unimplemented after 4 years. ECHR can only &quot;urge&quot; the UK. Toothless in any real sense.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has none, Marper still unimplemented after 4 years. ECHR can only &#8220;urge&#8221; the UK. Toothless in any real sense.</p>
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		<title>By: Samrah</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20747</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Samrah]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 17:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20747</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I didn&#039;t think it was anything to be bothered about until I read Ruvi&#039;s comment. I can see where he&#039;s coming from as well but I appreciate that the list is up just because I find it helpful in understanding the issue- and I imagine that others would as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t think it was anything to be bothered about until I read Ruvi&#8217;s comment. I can see where he&#8217;s coming from as well but I appreciate that the list is up just because I find it helpful in understanding the issue- and I imagine that others would as well.</p>
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		<title>By: flo krause</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20739</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[flo krause]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:40:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20739</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[because of the decision in Frodl v UK and, by analogy, Sauve No2 in Canada]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>because of the decision in Frodl v UK and, by analogy, Sauve No2 in Canada</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Wagner</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20723</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam Wagner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 11:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20723</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I take the point - the reason I deleted was that I see where Ruvi is coming from, there is a potential chauvinism in comparing those states to the UK. I didn&#039;t want that to overshadow the main point of the post. Anyway, I have added back in the list (which is relevant) although allowing people to make up their own minds as to whether it is relevant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I take the point &#8211; the reason I deleted was that I see where Ruvi is coming from, there is a potential chauvinism in comparing those states to the UK. I didn&#8217;t want that to overshadow the main point of the post. Anyway, I have added back in the list (which is relevant) although allowing people to make up their own minds as to whether it is relevant.</p>
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		<title>By: rose white</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20721</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rose white]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 11:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20721</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[if the ECHR puts a positive obligation on a member state ie UK does that mean the UK must follow the case-law in which the positive obligation was stated?

Or can the UK just ignore these positive obligation and go on its merry way?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if the ECHR puts a positive obligation on a member state ie UK does that mean the UK must follow the case-law in which the positive obligation was stated?</p>
<p>Or can the UK just ignore these positive obligation and go on its merry way?</p>
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		<title>By: Timothy</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20717</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Timothy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 11:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20717</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If an &lt;b&gt; indiscriminate and blanket &lt;/b&gt; ban on convicted prisoners being able to vote was contrary to the Protocol, why is there any reason to think that a &lt;b&gt; discriminating and nuanced &lt;/b&gt; ban on &lt;i&gt; some &lt;/i&gt; prisoners voting would be contrary to the Protocol? The logic of some of the argument in this post is a bit elusive (and I&#039;m in favour of as many prisoners voting as possible).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If an <b> indiscriminate and blanket </b> ban on convicted prisoners being able to vote was contrary to the Protocol, why is there any reason to think that a <b> discriminating and nuanced </b> ban on <i> some </i> prisoners voting would be contrary to the Protocol? The logic of some of the argument in this post is a bit elusive (and I&#8217;m in favour of as many prisoners voting as possible).</p>
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		<title>By: Tobias Thienel</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20716</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tobias Thienel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 10:59:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20716</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I agree entirely with the point made in the post and would like to make two short remarks, the first of which will also be in reply to &#039;The Engineer&#039; above.

The obligation to abide by the judgment is one under public international law, here in the form of Article 46 of the Convention. Such obligations are not addressed either to Parliament or to the government or to any other institution. They are addressed only to the United Kingdom as a state. (This is known in international law as &#039;the principle of the unity of the state&#039;, UN Doc A/56/10, p 85.) Domestic divisions of power, whether they be between Parliament and the executive or between federal and state levels as in the US (and elsewhere), do not matter. The United Kingdom must abide by the judgment in the form explained in the post. How the UK does this is entirely a matter for itself, but the state cannot point to domestic law or practice as a defence for failing to comply. In other words: if Parliament does not change the law with respect to convicted prisoners, it will put the UK in violation of Article 46. If the government fails to act, it will do the same.

It follows that Parliament and all MPs and members of the House of Lords are indirectly obliged to pass new legislation. However, because their very existence does not matter vis-à-vis the international level, they cannot be directly obliged as such. The US Supreme Court once said that for the purposes of international law, the American States did not exist (I&#039;m sorry I can&#039;t find the reference); only the United States of America as a constructively unitary state and single entity does. Likewise, the UK is bound by Article 46 as a single entity, quite regardless of the fact that there is a Parliament and that this has several hundred members. Like the American States, these &#039;do not exist&#039;.

While it is true that domestic law cannot bind Parliament to pass new legislation (cf s 10 HRA 1998), and while it is also true that international law is not directly addressed to Parliament, international law can oblige the UK to do something that, domestically, requires new legislation. If this is not done, the UK will be in violation of international law.

Finally, a pedantic remark: it is said in the post that the UK &#039;Parliament signed up to the Convention&#039;. Of course, Parliament didn&#039;t really do that. The government and the King did, in 1950-1951, because treaties are made under the royal prerogative. Parliament only made the Convention rights applicable in (or rather: as) domestic law, through the HRA 1998.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree entirely with the point made in the post and would like to make two short remarks, the first of which will also be in reply to &#8216;The Engineer&#8217; above.</p>
<p>The obligation to abide by the judgment is one under public international law, here in the form of Article 46 of the Convention. Such obligations are not addressed either to Parliament or to the government or to any other institution. They are addressed only to the United Kingdom as a state. (This is known in international law as &#8216;the principle of the unity of the state&#8217;, UN Doc A/56/10, p 85.) Domestic divisions of power, whether they be between Parliament and the executive or between federal and state levels as in the US (and elsewhere), do not matter. The United Kingdom must abide by the judgment in the form explained in the post. How the UK does this is entirely a matter for itself, but the state cannot point to domestic law or practice as a defence for failing to comply. In other words: if Parliament does not change the law with respect to convicted prisoners, it will put the UK in violation of Article 46. If the government fails to act, it will do the same.</p>
<p>It follows that Parliament and all MPs and members of the House of Lords are indirectly obliged to pass new legislation. However, because their very existence does not matter vis-à-vis the international level, they cannot be directly obliged as such. The US Supreme Court once said that for the purposes of international law, the American States did not exist (I&#8217;m sorry I can&#8217;t find the reference); only the United States of America as a constructively unitary state and single entity does. Likewise, the UK is bound by Article 46 as a single entity, quite regardless of the fact that there is a Parliament and that this has several hundred members. Like the American States, these &#8216;do not exist&#8217;.</p>
<p>While it is true that domestic law cannot bind Parliament to pass new legislation (cf s 10 HRA 1998), and while it is also true that international law is not directly addressed to Parliament, international law can oblige the UK to do something that, domestically, requires new legislation. If this is not done, the UK will be in violation of international law.</p>
<p>Finally, a pedantic remark: it is said in the post that the UK &#8216;Parliament signed up to the Convention&#8217;. Of course, Parliament didn&#8217;t really do that. The government and the King did, in 1950-1951, because treaties are made under the royal prerogative. Parliament only made the Convention rights applicable in (or rather: as) domestic law, through the HRA 1998.</p>
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		<title>By: JenTheHen</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20712</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[JenTheHen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 10:30:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Please put that para back at the top in the main piece Adam where it was and where it belongs. I would have wanted to know that and am glad I now do (if true, see below), I&#039;m grateful to you. That list is important and interesting, why might some wish to hide it I wonder... As you know, many people don&#039;t have the time (or inclination) to read comments so go on, put it back up top! Oh and a link to good evidence/where you found that info might be good, can the evidence be trusted? In other words can we say it is fact? Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please put that para back at the top in the main piece Adam where it was and where it belongs. I would have wanted to know that and am glad I now do (if true, see below), I&#8217;m grateful to you. That list is important and interesting, why might some wish to hide it I wonder&#8230; As you know, many people don&#8217;t have the time (or inclination) to read comments so go on, put it back up top! Oh and a link to good evidence/where you found that info might be good, can the evidence be trusted? In other words can we say it is fact? Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam Wagner</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20710</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Adam Wagner]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 10:09:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20710</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ruvi - fair enough. I have amended the final para (for those wondering what it used to say: &quot;The UK will continue to be part of the club of seven countries which ban all convicted prisoners from voting, including Armenia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Russia. Auspicious company indeed.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ruvi &#8211; fair enough. I have amended the final para (for those wondering what it used to say: &#8220;The UK will continue to be part of the club of seven countries which ban all convicted prisoners from voting, including Armenia, Bulgaria, Estonia, Georgia, Hungary, Russia. Auspicious company indeed.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ruvi Ziegler</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20706</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ruvi Ziegler]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:42:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20706</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Adam, you will know that I generally subscribe to this analysis. 
However, I fail to see the need for a crowd-pleasing derogatory comment regarding other states in the Council of Europe. I wonder if you would make a similar comment had the UK been in the auspicious company of fervently anti-abortion neighbouring states. As readers will know, the U.K.&#039;s greatest war (and otherwise) ally has worse policies that result in nearly one of every nine African American males being disenfranchised.
I am not doubting that many rights are better protected in the U.K. than in other member-states; I do however think the description carries an unwarranted chauvinistic undertone, and that on this particular issue successive governments&#039; attitude has been contemptuous.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam, you will know that I generally subscribe to this analysis.<br />
However, I fail to see the need for a crowd-pleasing derogatory comment regarding other states in the Council of Europe. I wonder if you would make a similar comment had the UK been in the auspicious company of fervently anti-abortion neighbouring states. As readers will know, the U.K.&#8217;s greatest war (and otherwise) ally has worse policies that result in nearly one of every nine African American males being disenfranchised.<br />
I am not doubting that many rights are better protected in the U.K. than in other member-states; I do however think the description carries an unwarranted chauvinistic undertone, and that on this particular issue successive governments&#8217; attitude has been contemptuous.</p>
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		<title>By: The Engineer</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/18/no-one-should-be-under-any-doubt-prisoners-are-not-getting-the-vote-under-this-government/comment-page-1/#comment-20705</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Engineer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Nov 2012 09:40:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16067#comment-20705</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[By what mechanism does the European Court of Human Rights compel Parliament to enact measures regardless of any support among the individual Members?  I hold no view, I merely ask the question.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By what mechanism does the European Court of Human Rights compel Parliament to enact measures regardless of any support among the individual Members?  I hold no view, I merely ask the question.</p>
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