<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Abu Qatada: Preventing a flagrant denial of justice</title>
	<atom:link href="http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/13/abu-qatada-preventing-a-flagrant-denial-of-justice/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/13/abu-qatada-preventing-a-flagrant-denial-of-justice/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 23 May 2013 11:18:55 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: alistair</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/13/abu-qatada-preventing-a-flagrant-denial-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-20458</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alistair]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Nov 2012 00:11:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16029#comment-20458</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[isdigby - that&#039;s precisely my point. Britain is not David Cameron&#039;s home, of which he is the homeowner and from which he can can throw people out. He wants to behave as if it is, as if your analogy can be scaled up to him as being in charge of this land. I argue that it&#039;s extremely important that it can&#039;t.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>isdigby &#8211; that&#8217;s precisely my point. Britain is not David Cameron&#8217;s home, of which he is the homeowner and from which he can can throw people out. He wants to behave as if it is, as if your analogy can be scaled up to him as being in charge of this land. I argue that it&#8217;s extremely important that it can&#8217;t.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: isdigby</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/13/abu-qatada-preventing-a-flagrant-denial-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-20350</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[isdigby]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 23:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16029#comment-20350</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Truly unjust to keep a man in prison for years without charge. But here&#039;s a thought: I as an individual can eject someone from my home on the basis that I find his behaviour offensive. I do not need to prove a crime against him. Extend the principle....]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Truly unjust to keep a man in prison for years without charge. But here&#8217;s a thought: I as an individual can eject someone from my home on the basis that I find his behaviour offensive. I do not need to prove a crime against him. Extend the principle&#8230;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Pillsbury</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/13/abu-qatada-preventing-a-flagrant-denial-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-20331</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Pillsbury]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 19:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16029#comment-20331</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A poor decision by a weak court.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A poor decision by a weak court.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: alistair</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/13/abu-qatada-preventing-a-flagrant-denial-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-20296</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[alistair]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 13:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16029#comment-20296</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David Cameron has just announced that he is ‘fed up’ with the rule of law, and wishes to be able to give the order to throw someone out of the country and have that order obeyed, without judges or human rights getting in the way. This is the difference between law and the Führerprinzip. Under the rule of law, everyone, including the Prime Minister, is equal before the law, which is founded on principles of right and wrong and not embodied in the desires and dictates of one person or group. Under the Führerprinzip, laws are orders. The leader commands and the country obeys. Cameron has stated his frustration in being Prime Minister in a representative parliamentary democracy governed by law and human rights, such that he can’t behave according to the leader principle. Tony Blair clearly acted according to the Führerprinzip, considering himself to be the leader who decided things and gave orders, irrespective of the wishes of the people, or of human rights laws concerning war and torture. Cameron has the same attitude, and the tabloids are baying for it to win. Now more than ever we need to assert human rights, the rule of law, and the fact that all are equals before the law, including Cameron. Being Prime Minister is not being the leader according to the Führerprinzip, it is a position of responsibility and service to the nation in a democracy ruled by law and rights. If we lose sight of that in our country, Fascism is the next step.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David Cameron has just announced that he is ‘fed up’ with the rule of law, and wishes to be able to give the order to throw someone out of the country and have that order obeyed, without judges or human rights getting in the way. This is the difference between law and the Führerprinzip. Under the rule of law, everyone, including the Prime Minister, is equal before the law, which is founded on principles of right and wrong and not embodied in the desires and dictates of one person or group. Under the Führerprinzip, laws are orders. The leader commands and the country obeys. Cameron has stated his frustration in being Prime Minister in a representative parliamentary democracy governed by law and human rights, such that he can’t behave according to the leader principle. Tony Blair clearly acted according to the Führerprinzip, considering himself to be the leader who decided things and gave orders, irrespective of the wishes of the people, or of human rights laws concerning war and torture. Cameron has the same attitude, and the tabloids are baying for it to win. Now more than ever we need to assert human rights, the rule of law, and the fact that all are equals before the law, including Cameron. Being Prime Minister is not being the leader according to the Führerprinzip, it is a position of responsibility and service to the nation in a democracy ruled by law and rights. If we lose sight of that in our country, Fascism is the next step.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The Engineer</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/13/abu-qatada-preventing-a-flagrant-denial-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-20285</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Engineer]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 12:13:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16029#comment-20285</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Has the gentleman a &#039;right&#039; to be dangerous and to threaten others?  Does he in fact do so?
Were the impugned statements in fact (not risk) obtained under torture?   If so, are they nevertheless true?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has the gentleman a &#8216;right&#8217; to be dangerous and to threaten others?  Does he in fact do so?<br />
Were the impugned statements in fact (not risk) obtained under torture?   If so, are they nevertheless true?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: James Lawson</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/13/abu-qatada-preventing-a-flagrant-denial-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-20236</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[James Lawson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 05:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16029#comment-20236</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The United Kingdom has a long and venerable history of torture going all the way back to the last war, honed to perfection in the decolonisation process that followed it.  It retained the &#039;5 techniques&#039; perfected in Aden which the European Court of Human Rights in Ireland v UK found in violation of Article 3.  While Ted Heath told Parliament and then the world that they would never again be used as a method of interrogation, the Joint Intelligence Committee&#039;s draft guidance at Part 1 promulgated the prohibition to the MOD, the Home Office and the Police. Part II of its guidance (not referred to in Part I) was never supposed to see the light of day and if it did, it was to be regarded as a &#039;draft&#039; which was never approved allowed the MOD to ensure that the School of Service Intelligence continued to train service personnel in its use.  Part II would have remained undiscovered but for an innocent Iraqi hotel receptionist, Bahu Mousa tortured to death using the same 5 techniques years later which led to its enforced disclose at the public inquiry into his death at the hands of the Army in Iraq!

It was the same British Government that was engaged in &#039;rendering&#039; Libyan dissidents to the tender mercies of Ghadaffi&#039;s torture regime on the orders of Jack Straw who denied all knowledge until MI6 waved under his nose the signed section 7 certificates granting immunity from criminal prosecution and civil liability to his subordinates who were only &#039;obeying orders&#039;!  Funny how no one is seriously considering hauling Straw before the &#039;beak&#039; but happy to jail an expendable little Lance Corporal from 1 QLR who deprived a father of his son and two little boys of their father!

Add to that the outsourcing of torture to the Somali authorities of a UK resident the evidence from which was passed back to the UK Security Services who used it to frame &#039;questions&#039; to be put to the victim by the Border Agency on his deportation back to the Uk under Schedule 7 Terrorism Act 2000 and then used as the basis to place him under a control order - evidence derived from torture!

One can only imagine therefore how bemused the Jordanians must be following an assurance they gave to the British Government that no evidence secured by torture would be used against Qatada when faced with yet another approach from the British inviting the Kingdom to amend their criminal code to provide for the legal inadmissibility of such evidence.

You have to hand it to you average British Politician for his talent in the practiced art of hypocracy in taking a man like Qatada who has committed no criminal offence in this country, &#039;banging him up&#039; for years, mobilising the vilification machinery of the national press to portray him as the personification of evil and then complain about the expense incurred in having to protect him against threats to his life when release on bail!

You certainly have to give the Home Secretary full marks for double standards for blaming the courts and the Human Rights Act for the inordinate delay in extraditing Abu Hamza to the USA who was merely suspected of an offence yet vilified for his views in the press while, at the same time, praying in aid of the Human Right Act and circumventing the court to prevent the extradition to the USA of Gary McKinnon who actually committed a serious crime of hacking into the computers of the Pentagon and NASA who was rather luckier than Hamza in having the press behind him allowing the government to abandon whatever principles it pretends to adhere to in order reap the benefit of a politically popular decision.

In short, whatever threat to this country Qatada represents, must pale into insignificance when set against the damage inflicted by those we choose to elect.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The United Kingdom has a long and venerable history of torture going all the way back to the last war, honed to perfection in the decolonisation process that followed it.  It retained the &#8217;5 techniques&#8217; perfected in Aden which the European Court of Human Rights in Ireland v UK found in violation of Article 3.  While Ted Heath told Parliament and then the world that they would never again be used as a method of interrogation, the Joint Intelligence Committee&#8217;s draft guidance at Part 1 promulgated the prohibition to the MOD, the Home Office and the Police. Part II of its guidance (not referred to in Part I) was never supposed to see the light of day and if it did, it was to be regarded as a &#8216;draft&#8217; which was never approved allowed the MOD to ensure that the School of Service Intelligence continued to train service personnel in its use.  Part II would have remained undiscovered but for an innocent Iraqi hotel receptionist, Bahu Mousa tortured to death using the same 5 techniques years later which led to its enforced disclose at the public inquiry into his death at the hands of the Army in Iraq!</p>
<p>It was the same British Government that was engaged in &#8216;rendering&#8217; Libyan dissidents to the tender mercies of Ghadaffi&#8217;s torture regime on the orders of Jack Straw who denied all knowledge until MI6 waved under his nose the signed section 7 certificates granting immunity from criminal prosecution and civil liability to his subordinates who were only &#8216;obeying orders&#8217;!  Funny how no one is seriously considering hauling Straw before the &#8216;beak&#8217; but happy to jail an expendable little Lance Corporal from 1 QLR who deprived a father of his son and two little boys of their father!</p>
<p>Add to that the outsourcing of torture to the Somali authorities of a UK resident the evidence from which was passed back to the UK Security Services who used it to frame &#8216;questions&#8217; to be put to the victim by the Border Agency on his deportation back to the Uk under Schedule 7 Terrorism Act 2000 and then used as the basis to place him under a control order &#8211; evidence derived from torture!</p>
<p>One can only imagine therefore how bemused the Jordanians must be following an assurance they gave to the British Government that no evidence secured by torture would be used against Qatada when faced with yet another approach from the British inviting the Kingdom to amend their criminal code to provide for the legal inadmissibility of such evidence.</p>
<p>You have to hand it to you average British Politician for his talent in the practiced art of hypocracy in taking a man like Qatada who has committed no criminal offence in this country, &#8216;banging him up&#8217; for years, mobilising the vilification machinery of the national press to portray him as the personification of evil and then complain about the expense incurred in having to protect him against threats to his life when release on bail!</p>
<p>You certainly have to give the Home Secretary full marks for double standards for blaming the courts and the Human Rights Act for the inordinate delay in extraditing Abu Hamza to the USA who was merely suspected of an offence yet vilified for his views in the press while, at the same time, praying in aid of the Human Right Act and circumventing the court to prevent the extradition to the USA of Gary McKinnon who actually committed a serious crime of hacking into the computers of the Pentagon and NASA who was rather luckier than Hamza in having the press behind him allowing the government to abandon whatever principles it pretends to adhere to in order reap the benefit of a politically popular decision.</p>
<p>In short, whatever threat to this country Qatada represents, must pale into insignificance when set against the damage inflicted by those we choose to elect.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: cidermaker</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/13/abu-qatada-preventing-a-flagrant-denial-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-20199</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[cidermaker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 00:24:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16029#comment-20199</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Qatada has already been tried &amp; convicted i Jorda so the issue of a new trial is irrelevant. From the diplomatic point of view Jordan is a &#039;friendly&#039; country in a very turbulent area, therefore politically it would be sound sense to send him back.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Qatada has already been tried &amp; convicted i Jorda so the issue of a new trial is irrelevant. From the diplomatic point of view Jordan is a &#8216;friendly&#8217; country in a very turbulent area, therefore politically it would be sound sense to send him back.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: ObiterJ</title>
		<link>http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/2012/11/13/abu-qatada-preventing-a-flagrant-denial-of-justice/comment-page-1/#comment-20198</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ObiterJ]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Nov 2012 00:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ukhumanrightsblog.com/?p=16029#comment-20198</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I find this a problematic case.  

On then one hand, I see no reason to doubt that AQ is (or has been) a serious risk if he were free in the UK.  The considered opinion of SIAC has to be accepted on this given that WE have not seen the totality of the evidence against him and probably never will.  

On the other hand, Jordan &quot;appears&quot; to have cleaned up its act and does not torture detainees these days though it undoubtedly did in the past - (check out Human Rights Watch - Jordan).

The Jordanian case against AQ turns on two statements - (very likely extracted under torture) - which implicate him in terrorism in Jordan.  Is this the ONLY evidence against him?  If not, why cannot Jordan give an assurance that those statements will not be used against him in a future trial?  IF the other evidence were strong enough then they would not need to rely on the statements.  

The answer to that seems to lie in the (supposed) independence of the Jordanian judiciary. Here then is the nub of the problem regarding assurances.  IF a nation&#039;s judiciary are unable to give a commitment in advance of any trial that certain material will not be used at the trial of a person then the policy of &quot;assurances&quot; is utterly flawed.  No judiciary - claiming to be independent - will give any assurance unless the case is actually before them.

Hence, the inescapable logic seems to be that assurances will usually be utterly worthless.  I would be interested to hear argument against this since but, for my part, I have never been impressed by the idea of assurances received via diplomatic channels for States which have used torture.

The AQ case shows that our judiciary is truly independent of the executive and this is a matter to be very very proud of.  Thomas Erskine referred to it as &quot;the sacred independence of the judiciary.&quot;  At all costs, this must be guarded.

The fact then remains that we have a man in the Uk who is - according to government AND SIAC - a very serious risk to public safety.   How is this to be dealt with?  Perhaps a virtually permanent TPIM is the answer?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find this a problematic case.  </p>
<p>On then one hand, I see no reason to doubt that AQ is (or has been) a serious risk if he were free in the UK.  The considered opinion of SIAC has to be accepted on this given that WE have not seen the totality of the evidence against him and probably never will.  </p>
<p>On the other hand, Jordan &#8220;appears&#8221; to have cleaned up its act and does not torture detainees these days though it undoubtedly did in the past &#8211; (check out Human Rights Watch &#8211; Jordan).</p>
<p>The Jordanian case against AQ turns on two statements &#8211; (very likely extracted under torture) &#8211; which implicate him in terrorism in Jordan.  Is this the ONLY evidence against him?  If not, why cannot Jordan give an assurance that those statements will not be used against him in a future trial?  IF the other evidence were strong enough then they would not need to rely on the statements.  </p>
<p>The answer to that seems to lie in the (supposed) independence of the Jordanian judiciary. Here then is the nub of the problem regarding assurances.  IF a nation&#8217;s judiciary are unable to give a commitment in advance of any trial that certain material will not be used at the trial of a person then the policy of &#8220;assurances&#8221; is utterly flawed.  No judiciary &#8211; claiming to be independent &#8211; will give any assurance unless the case is actually before them.</p>
<p>Hence, the inescapable logic seems to be that assurances will usually be utterly worthless.  I would be interested to hear argument against this since but, for my part, I have never been impressed by the idea of assurances received via diplomatic channels for States which have used torture.</p>
<p>The AQ case shows that our judiciary is truly independent of the executive and this is a matter to be very very proud of.  Thomas Erskine referred to it as &#8220;the sacred independence of the judiciary.&#8221;  At all costs, this must be guarded.</p>
<p>The fact then remains that we have a man in the Uk who is &#8211; according to government AND SIAC &#8211; a very serious risk to public safety.   How is this to be dealt with?  Perhaps a virtually permanent TPIM is the answer?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
